Potential down size....

[AlastairH]

So, I run Classic 100ASLs, C6CA, C6 sub and a pair of the passive 20s. There is nothing I really want more from this system other than time to hear it in its full glory!

That all being said, I’ve shoe horned in this large system into a space roughly 7x4.5 and have all the speakers close to one wall or another. I’ve said elsewhere, I am breaking all the basic rules of sensible set up and have to compromise via use of EQ. That does not bother me too much but I can’t get away from the fact that this is a big physical dominating system in a small/medium (and critically) shared space. I also hide the C6CA in an enormous multi purpose AV unit. Reducing the AV unit to something smaller would also be beneficial. Floor standers would also win me many many brownie points.....

Perhaps with lockdown I’ve had too much time on my hands to mull things over however I am wondering if I can achieve a very close sound to what I have but by using smaller speakers, in terms of the front 3.

So my (very first world) question to anyone out there - have you felt compelled or have needed to downsize from large ATCs to smaller ones? If so what did you go from to?

At the moment I wonder if 3 x40As would be a good move. I’ve never heard them but I think I will have to organise a demo.

[Antifon]

In terms of visual impact, the SCM40A's would be much much more discrete, and would seem to be adequate in a 7 x 4.5m room, unless you have very tall ceilings - especially given that you already have the sub.

Why are you not considering 50ASLs or 50ASLTs? These are going to be a fair bit smaller than the 100ASLs, obviously, and for some reason the Tower versions look (to me) to be slimmer than the non-Tower version, even though they are almost exactly the same width.

[AlastairH]

Thanks - not ruled anything out yet, including the 50!

[Mariner]

Puuuhh... i think i must be hard to think about downsizing !
Because in the " High-End scene" we always like to have more.😉
But there are situations when less is more.
When i bought my SCM20, more that 25 years ago, i was , after a short time, in the situation that i was sitting totaly satified before my stereo.
This "mood" is, from my point of view, the holy grail of music listening. Because we all want to listen to our music relaxed and enjoy it without questions.
If you are always asking, is that good or might it be better this way, you can´t enjoy !!
I had a Marantz quadro reciever in former times with four ProAc tabletts.
Man.. i can´t tell you how often it went to the reciever to level the channels. From that time i praise the calibration in modern equippment. It is like it is, it has to be controllend a few times, but than it is good, and thats it !
Sorry my english is limited to declare it complete understandable.
So if you have doubts, than it is time for a change !
Maybe only a proffesional acustical room improvement will help to get you satisfied.
The only thing about downsizing i have to tell is, when i changed from the 20ies down to the 10th there might be a little bit more transparence in the sound, but i missed the deeper frequencies. So the sound is transparent but thin. ( in a 16sqm room !!) So i go back to the 20ies !
But this is no measurement for your problem ! So it won´t help !
I know that you take care of your speakers and gave them an upgrade at ATC. Maybe your room needs the same attention ?
But , as we all know, there is a wife and a family that have to endure our "hobby", and it´s not easy to find compromises.
I wish you good luck !!

[AlastairH]

Puuuhh... i think i must be hard to think about downsizing !
Because in the " High-End scene" we always like to have more.😉
But there are situations when less is more.
When i bought my SCM20, more that 25 years ago, i was , after a short time, in the situation that i was sitting totaly satified before my stereo.
This "mood" is, from my point of view, the holy grail of music listening. Because we all want to listen to our music relaxed and enjoy it without questions.
If you are always asking, is that good or might it be better this way, you can´t enjoy !!
I had a Marantz quadro reciever in former times with four ProAc tabletts.
Man.. i can´t tell you how often it went to the reciever to level the channels. From that time i praise the calibration in modern equippment. It is like it is, it has to be controllend a few times, but than it is good, and thats it !
Sorry my english is limited to declare it complete understandable.
So if you have doubts, than it is time for a change !
Maybe only a proffesional acustical room improvement will help to get you satisfied.
The only thing about downsizing i have to tell is, when i changed from the 20ies down to the 10th there might be a little bit more transparence in the sound, but i missed the deeper frequencies. So the sound is transparent but thin. ( in a 16sqm room !!) So i go back to the 20ies !
But this is no measurement for your problem ! So it won´t help !
I know that you take care of your speakers and gave them an upgrade at ATC. Maybe your room needs the same attention ?
But , as we all know, there is a wife and a family that have to endure our "hobby", and it´s not easy to find compromises.
I wish you good luck !!

Thanks for your thoughts Rudy! No rush or pressure. Just experimenting and researching views. The objective here is to improve the physical look, which means smaller and more narrow speakers. Sadly room treatments are not an option.

ps are you still searching for some 50as, there is a uk seller who is trying to move some on ebay, as well as many others including 150s!

[Bulldog]

AlistairH, I empathise with your dilemma.

Have you considered culling your system? Keep the SCM100asl speakers and sell the sub woofer, surround speakers and the AV gear and revert back to pure stereo. You should make some money from the sale of your unwanted gear and have fun doing it.

My room size is around 6m x 5.5m. I have limited space for my SCM100asl speakers to sound their best, but they work well in my room without any help. I found it quite easy to position my speakers in the room for the best sound without electronic help. A simple setup is best.

If I tried to squeeze surround speakers and a sub woofer in, I would cramp the room as well as the sound, My SCM100's do so well when performing musical duties as well as reproducing bluray soundtracks - all without a sub woofer.

[AlastairH]

That does sound interesting however I do use the big centre for music (Trifield). I do value the centre a lot.

I do understand your point though, culling the multichannel elements would free up space ‘just’ leaving the 100s.

[jophill]

This ramble may or may not help but one way to think of right-sizing kit is relative to the size of the room.

With ATC, I think once you get to the SL 'speakers you can look at choosing the right one from the PoV of "how loud will it play?" more than "how low will the bass go?".

That's not about annoying the neighbours. If a 'speaker can play loud then all being equal it will produce less distortion at a "reasonable" neighbour-friendly average sound level. And then it also handles transient peak levels properly which can reach 100x average (20 dB). AIUI the bigger the room the higher the level the 'speaker must produce to sound right. With this view the SCM100 will play 3 dB louder than the SCM50 and will drive a bigger room. Unfortunately, the question I really don't know how to answer is "what's the right size for any particular room?"

I have a 6.7m x 3.5m room. The lovely-sounding two-way Proacs I had seemed to make me edgy if I turned up the volume beyond a certain point that was only just enough for normal. I chose the SCM50A over the fairly similar footprint SCM40A on the view that the more sensitive S-spec midrange needed less power to get the "reasonable" sound level I wanted (and a bit more to spare for occasions) and should play more cleanly. Since I didn't spend a long time with the SCM40A I don't know if I was over-specifying or being sensible (but I haven't regretted for one moment spending more on the SCM50As; they certainly play much more cleanly than the Proacs I had).

As for the bass, after adjusting 'speaker positions there's good response from the SCM50s down to a surprising 20 Hz (vs the goal of 27.5 Hz I was aiming at - the bottom note of a normal 88-key piano). Close-miked piano now sounds so much better. I suspect SCM100s in this room would sound little different to SCM50s.

The point of the above ramble is if you go too small you may lose the superbly clean mid-range (and bass) of the ATC SL range. But maybe the smaller ATC professional SL 'speakers such as the SCM25 (or even SCM20) will maintain the sound and match the room size. And outside the ATC range maybe professional monitor 'speakers with great SPL capability (e.g. the Neumann KH 310 A - which I haven't heard) might fit the bill. And Neumann has the matching KH 750 DSP subwoofer.

[AlastairH]

Thanks for your insights.

For sure I think the 50s would be more than good. The 100s get significant room gain beyond their specs in the bass, the 50s would also benefit in this way. I listen to piano too however I jump around in my music choices and also listen to a lot of electronic bass heavy music.

I shall try my passive 20s as front channels when I can shoe horn the family out of the door one upcoming Saturday afternoon :-)

Larger Adam Audio’s (I have some T7s) and Neumann are for sure of interest. Just not convinced they will meet the bosses visual approval standards. Slim Meridian floor standers get the thumbs up, the 40As did not, which was a surprise!

[Bulldog]

The SCM100s go very low, but the SCM50s go low too. In smaller rooms, I reckon it would be hard to tell the difference between the two. In bigger rooms the SCM100s start showing a clean pair of heels to the 50s. If the 50s won't fit, the 40As would be my next choice. The 40As still go nice and low and I personally wouldn't worry about a sub with these. It's nice ATC gives us so many choices. I've never heard a bad ATC speaker. It's win-win all around.

[AlastairH]

Good points. I am going to hear a pair of 40As tomorrow.

[Dogill]

The 20 Pros would have the advantage of the top drivers used and a discrete amp.

[AlastairH]

I know of someone who had 3 full range active Meridian DSPs (the 6k 96/24) in a dedicated room but switched to 3 20 active pros, supplemented with 15 inch subs. He is very happy!
My first active atc was in fact the original pro 20asls, serial numbers 5 and 6, I remember them well 😀

[AlastairH]

So just as an update on this one, I’ve heard quite a few speakers but all in different locations and not in my listening room -




Meridian DSP5200SE (2 different locations)

Meridian DSP7200SE

ATC SCM40A

Dutch & Dutch 8Cs and Kii Audios (in the same house)

Adam Audio S3V, Neumann KH120s, PMC twotwo 6, ATC SCM25As (Funky junk studio)




Where to start? Well since nothing has been demoed in my own room it’s been tough to fairly conclude much other than 1) none of the above sounded terrible and 2) nothing made me think, I want that one!




My first demo of the Meridian 5200SE was disappointing, I just felt underwhelmed and a bit bored. I enjoyed the larger 7200s but I think they will be too pricey on the used market. The second demo of the 5200SE was better however the set up was not to my liking. That said the room was amazing in terms of being a good size for the Meridian’s, a really nice space.




I heard the 40As in a very large space, so they were a little lost in my view. After I acclimatised I did enjoy them. They just lacked some bass (to what I like) but they had very little room gain effects, unlike my room.




The Kii audios were tuned to a flat user setting which was very impressive and clear sounding. A little bass light but that could have been improved with regard to the house curve choice. The D&Ds were more bass heavy (in their set up, at least) however I ran out of time to really conclude much. On looks at least they are ok but I prefer the Kiis, I think they look terrific. Both pushing my budget though, especially the Kiis.




The pro monitors at Funky Junk were really interesting. Set up in the near field, well away from walls at head height when sitting. I had a switch box to jump between the models as 1 track played. Level matching was slightly out but I continually went back to the 25s. I never really warmed to the Neumanns, I did appreciate the PMCs more over time. I had very little time with the Adam’s as there was only 1 speaker to listen to, one was delayed in shipping! When the pair were eventually set up I had little time left plus there was a gremlin in the set up which meant they sounded ‘phasey’…turns out it was a cable issue, not speaker. That was a shame because I’ve really enjoyed and do continue to enjoy the cheaper T7V model and the demo was organised to primarily hear the S3Vs!




I am undecided what I will do next in terms of which speaker to go for however I have decided to sell my 100s.

[linger63]

I am undecided what I will do next in terms of which speaker to go for however I have decided to sell my 100s.

I am 99.9% CERTAIN you will regret selling your 100's and don't think you should touch a single thing.
I run 70ASL's with a C5CA centre, 20PSL Pro rears, and 2 x 15" Velodyne Subs in a similar sized room and would KILL for your front end!!!!!

Great speakers will always be great speakers regardless of being in their "ideal" room.
All you will accomplish is little bit more space and..........a step (or 2) backwards in SQ.

YOUR WORDS!!!!!!!..............."There is nothing I really want more from this system other than time to hear it in its full glory!"

Just my 2c......🙂

[AlastairH]

Appreciate your thoughts! How are things in Aus?

Nothing is happening quickly, I am not giving them away!

100s are great indeed. But so are the smaller ones too in the range. I negatively presented EQ above. It’s been a god send. I’ve dialled back certain bass frequencies to good effect, to my ears at least. My point being that a smaller speaker will likely still perform well and the room gain will help out. Of course this is a bit of speculation until I have demoed something different.

If they don’t sell then I will simply keep them. I still have a challenge, regardless of what the system becomes, to hear it cranked on a regular basis!

[Larry]

AlastairH:

I believe you are an experienced audiophile. Maybe you're here for a sanity check? Hee hee, I know that world. Linger63 makes good points, AND sometimes priorities change, e.g. the importance of visual aesthetics.

My wife howled at her first view of 100ASLT's in our former living/listening room (10x8x4 meter) setup. Visually, 50ASLT's fit much better in my room - the 100s took my wife's breath away as did the 50s, but in opposite directions of approval. :-) Brownie points from your SO has its benefits.

On a sonic front, speakers and rooms that match well perform better. Speaker and listening positions can work around mismatches, IME. I expect you know that.

Sonically, I thought the 100s sounded more "accomplished" and composed than the still excellent 50s - same room different listening dates. Both were review pieces and out of reach for me at the time. I heard the 40ASLTs in the same room and they were very nice, but I preferred the precision and bite of my 20A speakers with dual 15" subs. Without the subs, I would have preferred the 40s as they sounded less strained than the 20s alone. FWIW, the midrange drivers of the 40 seem to be more (too?) forgiving,

Good luck with whatever choice you make. And remember the cost of swapping gear is . . . painful?

Larry

[AlastairH]

Thanks Larry. Acutely aware of the cost of swapping. A reason I am not rushing anything!

[Mariner]

I preferred the precision and bite of my 20A speakers
Larry

Hi Larry,
May i ask...are your 20A the pro model?

[Larry]

AlistairH: 👍


Mariner: I have the "art deco style" 20-2A speakers from about 2004-5.; they were consumer models. I have thought about updating the tweeters as they seem to elevate the 40A and 50ASL SE models quite substantially. Still a lot of money to "upgrade" when they still sound pretty good. even if not as good as they could.

[AlastairH]

Larry: have the 20s been checked over since you’ve owned them? Specifically the amp packs. They do change over time for the worse (I have had 50s and 100s serviced). My Classic 20Ps had the new tweeters a couple of years back. The old Vifa tweeters that came out were well below spec, they were from 1997.

[Mariner]

And it's also possible to change the old tweeters into new ones of the originals. That's what I did with my SCM20 's, and the refreshing was impessiv. The costs are around 100€ and worth in any way. It can be done by everyone in less than 15 minutes..

[Larry]

Alastair & Mariner:

I have not had my 20s serviced or the tweeters upgraded since I purchased them around 2008. I'm in the US. The importer indicated the speakers needed to be calibrated in Las Vegas. I was told the new tweeters are more efficient than the tweeters I have and the wave guide is (might be) different? I was quoted about $2k, plus shipping. Upgrading makes more sense than selling and rebuying 20s as my wife likes the art deco look.

FWIW, two years ago I repurchased the Gamut L5 speakers I owned before buying my 20-2A speakers. I have a Pass XA30.8 as a review loaner for the Gamuts. Do I buy the Pass for the "prettier" and more full range Gamuts or upgrade the stand mounted ATCs? The Gamuts are in my listening room and the ATCs are in our "family" room with video games. They don't sound the same but both sound very good. With the lockdowns I'm listening to less music, more youtube and Netflix. I have gourmet audio for a fast food ear. Maybe as life normalizes I'll want to make a decision, for now I'm standing pat.

As an aside, I would have loved to buy 50ASLTs, but they're nearly $30k here. I would be happy to read your thoughts, however.

[Mariner]

Well Larry,
you are surely not the only one who has a SCM20 and is dreaming of a SCM50 !
But , depending on the listening room, in some cases, the SCM 20 might make more sense.
To your 20´s...
I don´t know exactly which tweeter is in your "Art Deco" version.
I have this one:

http://www.markhennessy.co.uk/atc/index.htm

After some years the ferrofluid in the former tweeter, used by ATC, will dry out. This might couse a harsh sound.
The problem is, that you have difficulties to recognise it, because it´s a process that last a long time, and you get used to it!
From my poit of view, it´s a simple and effective way, to change the tweeter to get back the sound when the speakers were young.
There is no change in the crossover necessary because you use the same unit!
If you will install the new ATC tweeter a change in the crossover will be necessary, and also a calibration.
That makes this way expensive !
This ist the original tweeter ( Differences in the last numbers depends on the different baseplates)

https://www.wilmslowaudio.co.uk/vifa-d27tg-35-06-diameter104mm-695-p.asp

But this version is, as far as i know, not longer available.
But Scan Speak build a substitute with the same readings:

https://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d2606-922000.pdf

So, if your version had this tweeter in, all you have to do is, take out your HT-unit, don´t worry, no soldering necessary !
Dismantle the baseplate, also on the new tweeter. Than plant the new tweeter on the old baseplate, and build it in.
I´m not very used in this works, and i need less that 5 min. pro speaker !
I was absolut satisfied with the result, and all doubts, that i had before, were flewn away.
And the costs in total are, in my case, exat 99,00€ for two Scan speak units!
Good succeed, Rudy